On May 27th, 2008, Clifford Goldstein, posted a lead article entitled "Solely, Totally and Only Rome" in the Adventist Today blog. In it he argued that, based on the prophetic predictions we find in the Bible, the Church of Rome will play the role assigned to it by biblical predictions till the end of time. His posting was prompted by the story of David Pendleton, a man who graduated from Seventh-day institutions and who served the denomination in the State of Hawaii, but recently converted to the Catholic Church. These two articles inspired me to post some comments on Goldtein's blog, and this in turn generated a response from this blogger who dismissed my comments as a "red herring." I want to share with you some of the exchange of comments that took place. If you haven't read the above mentioned articles, you can do so by clidking on the following links: http://www.atoday.com/content/solely-totally-and-only-rome#comment-81 and http://www.atoday.com/i-have-a-lot-aloha-adventist-church-0.
On May 31st, 2008 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor
www.sdaforum.com
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There is no question, the Bible makes it patently clear that Rome remains on the world's scene till the end. The question is: How do you identify Rome, by its past or its present behavior? We have labeled the church of Rome as the "Beast of Revelation," and we identify it by the enigmatic 666 number. What do "beasts" of prey do? They attack, kill, and devour the weak. Is this what the Catholic Church is doing today? It is true, it did perform the beastly function of predatory animals in the past through its infamous Inquisition. Should we judge individuals and institutions by their past behavior or its present character? Is the Catholic Church persecuting and killing innocent human beings today? If it is not, then we have a problem.
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Take the issue of abortion, for example. What earthly power is behind the destruction of the unborn? Is it the Catholic church? If the Catholic Church and the current Popes are fearlessly defending the right of the unborn, while the "Remnant" church is justifying the extermination of the innocent, and if some our hospitals are engaged in the provision of elective abortion services, while the Catholic hospitals refuse to follow suit, then tell me, please: Judging on the beastly character of institutions, who is the "Beast of Revelation"? Have you read our SDA Church official Guidelines on Abortion? You find lofty statements about the sanctity of human life, but when you read the fine print, you discover that it states that Jesus died to grant us "freedom of choice." If this is true, then perhaps Jesus also died in order to grant us the right to rape, steal, and sexually abuse little children. Do you have an answer for me on this issue?
On May 31st, 2008 Dadu says:
Cliff, explain how the identification of Rome will inspire me to be compassionate today? Re your humorous comment on the other page: I don't think you have any idea how AToday has been such an important voice for many of us and therefore constructive. Nic, interesting to look at the positive in the Catholic church, I have recently been researching that. Re your comment on abortion: I'm glad that our SDA guidelines have allowed mother's to have a choice to come to one of our health centers; they will go somewhere to get their abortions. If I had walked in any of these women's shoes I might have made the same choice; I'm so glad it is God judging them and not humans.
On May 31st, 2008 Clifford Goldstein says:
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The bottom-line is what do the Scriptures clearly teach? Rome, Rome, Rome. That the papacy might now not be burning people at the stake is no testimony to her supposed change; she doesn't burn folks because she can't. Give her the chance, and I believe she'd do just what she did in the past. Rome as an institution, through its whole system of sacraments, totally usurps the gospel. Anyone who truly loves the gospel, loves the plan of salvation, must be horrified by what Rome has done to it. It truly is anti-Christ, in the sense that the Roman church has taken upon itself all that we have through Christ. According to Rome, you get it all only through the institution of Rome, which is the only mediator of Christ's gifts. Who cares what some of the "good" things Rome does? The Bible is utterly unequivocal on the topic of what it is and its role in last day events. We can believe what it says, or throw in "red herrings" about the SDA position on abortion and the like. Clifford Goldstein
Staff Blogger, Adventist Today
Re: Solely, Totally and Only Rome
On May 31st, 2008 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.sdaforum.com
Dadu: Yes, and there is much more we could say that is positive about the Catholic Church. Take, for example, the influence of Mother Teresa. A church that could produce such a saintly woman cannot be all that bad. No other denomination has ever turned a human being into such a loving individual. But I have a question for you. You stated regarding people involved in abortion that you are glad that "it is God judging them and not humans." Would you say the same about those involved in rape, burglary, and child abuse? If not, then on what basis do you establish a difference? Doesn't society force rapists, criminals, and child abusers to account for such crimes? Why give a carte blanche to those who either poison or dismember innocent babies before they are born, and sometimes while they are being born? A victim of rape, burglary, or child abuse may eventually recover and enjoy life. Those who are murdered before they have a chance to see the light of day are permanently deprived of the same God given right.
On May 31st, 2008 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.sdaforum.com
Cliff: What you say about Rome is true regarding its past, its prophetic future, and its role in obscuring the true Gospel of salvation. Nevertheless, I must question your characterization of abortion as a "red herring." For Mother Teresa, James and Ellen White, and the other leading SDA pioneers abortion was plain murder, and so it is in the sight of Almighty God, I believe. I once asked a respectable SDA physicians about the mother of Jesus, and he responded that he would have had no problem performing an abortion for her had she requested one. Another leading SDA recently published an article stating that the unborn has no right to life until he has taken the first breath. This attitude flies in the face of everything Scripture stands for.
Jesus told us that anybody who offended any of these little ones would do well to hang a stone around his neck and jumped into the sea. The Bible tells us that children should not be put to death for the sin of their parents, yet we justify abortion that results from the sin of adultery. The Catholic Church is wrong about the Gospel, about the Sabbath, and about the state of the dead, but it is right about the state of the living! Which is morally worse, to worship God on the wrong day of the week or to be responsible for the death of innocent human beings?
Do not forget that Sabbath keepers were the ones who took the life of the most innocent being in the entire universe: Jesus Christ. Not long ago, the leaders of the German and Austrian SDA Church apologized for their cooperation with the Nazi genocide [http://sdaforum.com/page47.html], and now we are making the same mistake about the genocide of the unborn. Fortunately, there is one person at the General Conference who seems to share my concerns about this atrocity: James Standish [http://www.religiousliberty.info/blog/?p=58]. God bless!
On June 1st, 2008 Clifford Goldstein says:
Look, this thread wasn't about abortion, it was about Rome, and the role of Rome in prophecy. The fact that you bring up problems in the SDA church (and, yes, I agree, abortions in our hospitals are bad news, for sure), is a red herring because it isn't the issue. Oh, so Rome is now no longer the last power in all those prophecies because they don't perform abortions at their hospitals and we do? I fail to see the connection with the topic. Clifford Goldstein Staff Blogger, Adventist Today
Re: Solely, Totally and Only Rome
On June 1st, 2008 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor www.sdaforum.com
Cliff: Let me suggest that you fail to see the connection between abortion and Rome simply because you refuse to see the larger picture. It it true that your blog is about Rome, but you wrote it in response to David Pendleton's experience who abandoned the SDA Church and joined the Catholic communion of faith. Evidently you feel that he made a mistake, and that the Adventist Church is destined to be more faithful than the one he now embraced, while Rome is doomed to play the role assigned to it by prophecy. My guess is that you are misinterpreting the true role of prophetic utterances. I see prophecy as a warning about what might happen if people and institutions do not repent, while you tend to look at divine predictions as means by which we can read tomorrow's news events.
Jesus told the story of two sons. One of them willingly said he would work in his father's vineyard, while the other refused. At the end the opposite took place. Jacob, the patriarch, predicted that the descendants of Levi would be dispersed in Israel as a result of Levi's misbehavior. That prediction became a blessing for Levi's descendants instead of a curse because Levi repented of his sin. I suggest that you would do well not to assume that because the Catholic Church played an evil role in the past that it is destined to do so till the end. As far as persecution is concerned, it may play said role again, or it may not.
In the past the Popes persecuted the innocents, today they are protecting them. How can you fail to see the connection between Rome and the abortion issue? It is crystal clear to me! Contrast this with our own "Remnant" Church. Our pioneers condemned abortion in the strongest terms, while we justify the genocide of the unborn. Our church was never tested with absolute power like the Popes of Rome. In Germany, our church failed the test during the Nazi regime, and had to apologize later on. If we failed then, and are failing now again by condoning the current genocide, can you guarantee that we will be faithful at the end? The Bible says: "If running against men has wearied you, how will you race against horses?"
On June 1st, 2008 Clifford Goldstein says:
Nic-- I don't want to get in a debate over this: what I want to show, and what I want to challenge ANYONE on is our interpretation of the last power in those three prophecies. That is the issue; not the SDA church's stand on abortion. Clifford Goldstein
On June 1st, 2008 nicsamojluk says:
Nic Samojluk, Editor
www.sdaforum.com
Cliff: I understand.The Bible makes it very clear that the last persecuting power is the "Beast of Revelation." There is no argument over this! The question is: How do you identify this enigmatic "beast.?" By it number, its historical connection, or by its character. If we as a church do what beasts of prey do, kill and justify the killing of innocent human beings, then we partake of the image of the beast. I just finished reading the article you wrote for "Signs of the Times." In it you identify the "Remnant" as those who keep God's Commandments. One of them prohibids the shedding of innocent blood. If we justify the shedding of innocent blood, we can't claim to be God's Remnant! That all!
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To read the entire sequence of comments, you need to click on the following Internet link:
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Will the Infamous Inquisition
be Repeated?
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I received the following comment via Email from Wyjoz. My response is listed below!
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" ''''''''''''''''''ANATHEMA'''''''''''''''''''''''''' LAWS ARE IN ROME IN THEIR BOOKS ! THE INQUISITION OF HERETICS IS A LAW! AND IT WILL COME INTO EFFECT WITH SUNDAY LAW (BLUE LAW) WHICH IS A LAW ON THE BOOKS AND THIS WILL BE IN FULL FORCE IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUY OR SELL !!!
SO WHO HAS A PROBLEM? THAT THE CHURCH IS NOT DOING THIS AT PRESENT TIME???? WHAT OF IT????????????? IF THE CHURCH CHANGED THEY SHOULD GET RID OF BLUE LAW AND ANATHEMA;HERETICS; INQUISITION; TORTURE; BURNING AT THE STAKES LAWS ! THEN I WILL SAY THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED !
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My Response: The theory that Rome will again repeat what it did during the infamous Inquisition is based on the interpretation of biblical prophecy found in the writings of Ellen White. This prediction may find fulfillment in the future or it may not. We need to understand the function of Biblical predictions. They are warnings of what may take place in the event people do not repent of the sins. I will use the following illustration: When little Johnny is misbehaving, and his Dad says: "You'll get a spanking." What is the purpose of this prediction? It is a warning of what is coming in the event Johnny fails to mend his ways. Johnny's dad is more concerned with his son's behavior than the fulfillment of his prediction.
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God acts in like manner. The blessing and curses found in the Old Testament illustrate quite well this fact. God gave the children of Israel a precise description of what would happen to them if they were obedient, and likewise if they rebelled against his benefactor. God's promises and warning are contingent of human response. This is patently exemplified in the classic example of what happened with Johnah's unfulfilled prediction against the city of Niniveh. In fact, sometimes a curse may become a blessing if people repent. We have the case of Levi. Jacob predicted that the tribe of Levi would be disperses among the Israelites. Levi repented of his sin, and his descendants were dispersed among Ithe tribes as predicted but they became the religious teachers in Israel.
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God predicted a glorious future for the nation of Israel, and said promises specified that Jerusalem would become the capital of the world to which all nations would go for instruction. At the same time, other prophecise predicted a totally different outcome, which included the rejection of the Messiah by God's chose nation. Both outcomes represented what could take place depending on human response to God's promises and warnings. God's warning were not heeded, and the promise of a glorious future for the nation of Israel did not take place.
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What we need to consider is not the past actions of Rome, but rather its present character. Is Rome persecuting and killing the innocents today? That is what the beasts of prey do. Does it deserve then the labell of "The Beast of Revelation? I don't think so! The Bible states that the children should not die for the sins of their parents. The current leaders of the Catholic church are not responsible for the sins of their predecessors. God judges them on the basis of their own actions. The Catholic church has shown a determined opposition to the slaughter of the unborn. Catholic hospitals refuse to stain their hands with the blood of the unborn.
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By contrast, the Adventist church justifies the killing of the unborn, and some of the SDA hospitals were even providing elective abortions services to their clients. This is why I say: If you want to know who deserves the label of "The Beast," then look at the character of people and institutions. If the U.S. Supreme Court sanctions the genocide of the unborn, then it partakes of the character of the "beast" and will be a target of God's judgments. The same can be said about the SDA church. Not long ago, the German and Austrian leaders of the SDA church issued a public apology for the church's cooperation with the Nazi genocide. This means that our church did err in the past, and is erring today regarding our participation in the current genocide.
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Nic
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Wyjoz Follow-Up: "WOW! I see Cliff Goldstein has Rome figured out! and one more thing to add to your SO THAT YOU'LL KNOW THE TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mother Teresa was an 'ICON" for collections of millions !!! for the church !!!! if she got to keep all the millions she received in donations from ALL OVER THE WORLD her run down shack for the poor would have been the 'best facility' money could buy ! WHY WHY did it forever remain a 'shamble' ??? because the 'church' confiscated all the donations ! and she under the pretense of 'humble servant' remained poor !!!! her 'center' remained a dirty run down shamble !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! here; is one post;;;;
http://www.seekwellness.com/wellness/reports/2004-03-25.htm search it our for yourself for more !!!
Joz "
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My Response: I did check the source you posted and this is what I found:
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"This composite selection includes an assortment of religious figures who, by virtue of appalling sermons, lectures, appearances and writings, solidified and deepened my disdain for supernaturalism, faith, revelations, orthodoxy and piety. I am, in a strange fashion, deeply indebted to the following, all of who belong in a personal anti-hero hall of shame. Thanks Bishop Fulton Sheen, Billy Graham, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Mother Teresa, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.”
Nobody complained about my negative perspective on Bishop Fulton Sheen, Billy Graham, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson but “How could you utter an unkind remark about the saintly Mother Teresa,?” most wanted to know. MT’s name, it seems, is more or less synonymous with selfless dedication in the service of humanity. Well, I’m glad they asked. As Richard Nixon might intone, “Let me say this about that.”
If you are a regular visitor to this site, you know I have little use for or belief in such silliness as saints, angels, devils or other religious creations designed to entertain (or shock and awe, motivate, frighten and/or control) the masses."
My question to you: Can you trust someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural, faith, revelations, piety, angels, saints, and who discounts even Billy Graham? Even Jesus Christ was severely criticized by his enemies. So what else is new?
Nic
More from Wyjoz: " YOU WRITE; 'In it you identify the "Remnant" as those who keep God's Commandments. One of them prohibids the shedding of innocent blood. If we justify the shedding of innocent blood, we can't claim to be God's Remnant! That all!'
Nic: the shedding of 'innocent' blood applies to 'innocent' people ! not only to innocent aborted babies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for your information !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the bulk of abortions is done by 'catholics' the next is young/single/black-americans !!!!
Joz"
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My Response: Yes, the shedding of innocent blood applies both to innocent people and innocent unborn babies! Please, provide the source for your claim that most abortions are done by Catholics.
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I have a question for you: How does your argument that most abortions are performed by Catholics negate what I stated about Catholic hospitals refusing to perform abortions?
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My argument was: Our church which claims to be the "Remnat of God" keeping "God's commandments", officially justifies the killing of the unborn, while the Catholic church, whom we labell as the "Beast of Revelation" condemns the genocide of the unborn in the stongest terms. Where did I go wrong? As far as the respect for human life, which church is acting more in line with the Sixth Commandment which forbids murder
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Nic
Was Mother Teresa Really
a Fraud?
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Wyjoz seems to believe that Mother Teresa was in fact a fraud. Here is the material she sent to SDA Forum. My response is posted below.
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"THE LETTER ABOUT MOTHER TERESA WAS OR IS NOT THE BEST EXAMPLE TO POST/QUOTE! YOU CHOSE TO DISECT THE WRITER AND HIS BELIEFS WHILE I MEANT TO VIEW THE POINT HE MADE ABOUT 'Mother Teresa" hmmmmmmmmm
THERE ARE OTHERS THAT REVEAL THAT THE CLINICS REMAIN SUCH SHAMBLES???
Web Results
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Teresa Is a Fraud |
By Greg Szymanski � Arctic Beacon June 6, 2007
For nine years Susan Shields worked as a devoted Catholic Sister, working for Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity. When finally becoming fed-up in 1989, she left Mother Teresa in disgust over the misuse of millions in charitable donations that never got to their destination -- the poor and afflicted.
Shields story was recently sent to the Arctic Beacon, as printed in the Free Inquiry Magazine, revealing how Mother Teresa really turned a blind eye to the poor while millions of dollars in donations are still sitting in Vatican bank accounts.
Here is her story entitled "Mother Teresa's House of Illusions: How She Harmed Her Helpers As Well As Those They `Helped'
"Some years after I became a Catholic, I joined Mother Teresa's congregation, the Missionaries of Charity. I was one of her sisters for nine and a half years, living in the Bronx, Rome, and San Francisco, until I became disillusioned and left in May 1989. As I re-entered the world, I slowly began to unravel the tangle of lies in which I had lived. I wondered how I could have believed them for so long.
"Three of Mother Teresa's teachings that are fundamental to her religious congregation are all the more dangerous because they are believed so sincerely by her sisters. Most basic is the belief that as long as a sister obeys she is doing God's will. Another is the belief that the sisters have leverage over God by choosing to suffer. Their suffering makes God very happy. He then dispenses more graces to humanity. The third is the belief that any attachment to human beings, even the poor being served, supposedly interferes with love of God and must be vigilantly avoided or immediately uprooted. The efforts to prevent any attachments cause continual chaos and confusion, movement and change in the congregation. Mother Teresa did not invent these beliefs - they were prevalent in religious congregations before Vatican II - but she did everything in her power (which was great) to enforce them.
"Once a sister has accepted these fallacies she will do almost anything. She can allow her health to be destroyed, neglect those she vowed to serve, and switch off her feelings and independent thought. She can turn a blind eye to suffering, inform on her fellow sisters, tell lies with ease, and ignore public laws and regulations.
Women from many nations joined Mother Teresa in the expectation that they would help the poor and come closer to God themselves. When I left, there were more than 3,000 sisters in approximately 400 houses scattered throughout the world. Many of these sisters who trusted Mother Teresa to guide them have become broken people. In the face of overwhelming evidence, some of them have finally admitted that their trust has been betrayed, that God could not possibly be giving the orders they hear. It is difficult for them to decide to leave - their self-confidence has been destroyed, and they have no education beyond what they brought with them when they joined. I was one of the lucky ones who mustered enough courage to walk away.
"It is in the hope that others may see the fallacy of this purported way to holiness that I tell a little of what I know. Although there are relatively few tempted to join Mother Teresa's congregation of sisters, there are many who generously have supported her work because they do not realize how her twisted premises strangle efforts to alleviate misery. Unaware that most of the donations sit unused in her bank accounts, they too are deceived into thinking they are helping the poor.
"As a Missionary of Charity, I was assigned to record donations and write the thank-you letters. The money arrived at a frantic rate. The mail carrier often delivered the letters in sacks. We wrote receipts for checks of $50,000 and more on a regular basis. Sometimes a donor would call up and ask if we had received his check, expecting us to remember it readily because it was so large. How could we say that we could not recall it because we had received so many that were even larger?
"When Mother spoke publicly, she never asked for money, but she did encourage people to make sacrifices for the poor, to "give until it hurts." Many people did - and they gave it to her. We received touching letters from people, sometimes apparently poor themselves, who were making sacrifices to send us a little money for the starving people in Africa, the flood victims in Bangladesh, or the poor children in India. Most of the money sat in our bank accounts.
"The flood of donations was considered to be a sign of God's approval of Mother Teresa's congregation. We were told by our superiors that we received more gifts than other religious congregations because God was pleased with Mother, and because the Missionaries of Charity were the sisters who were faithful to the true spirit of religious life.
"Most of the sisters had no idea how much money the congregation was amassing. After all, we were taught not to collect anything. One summer the sisters living on the outskirts of Rome were given more crates of tomatoes than they could distribute. None of their neighbors wanted them because the crop had been so prolific that year. The sisters decided to can the tomatoes rather than let them spoil, but when Mother found out what they had done she was very displeased. Storing things showed lack of trust in Divine Providence.
"The donations rolled in and were deposited in the bank, but they had no effect on our ascetic lives and very little effect on the lives of the poor we were trying to help. We lived a simple life, bare of all superfluities. We had three sets of clothes, which we mended until the material was too rotten to patch anymore. We washed our own clothes by hand. The never-ending piles of sheets and towels from our night shelter for the homeless we washed by hand, too. Our bathing was accomplished with only one bucket of water. Dental and medical checkups were seen as an unnecessary luxury.
"Mother was very concerned that we preserve our spirit of poverty. Spending money would destroy that poverty. She seemed obsessed with using only the simplest of means for our work. Was this in the best interests of the people we were trying to help, or were we in fact using them as a tool to advance our own "sanctity?" In Haiti, to keep the spirit of poverty, the sisters reused needles until they became blunt. Seeing the pain caused by the blunt needles, some of the volunteers offered to procure more needles, but the sisters refused.
"We begged for food and supplies from local merchants as though we had no resources. On one of the rare occasions when we ran out of donated bread, we went begging at the local store. When our request was turned down, our superior decreed that the soup kitchen could do without bread for the day.
"It was not only merchants who were offered a chance to be generous. Airlines were requested to fly sisters and air cargo free of charge. Hospitals and doctors were expected to absorb the costs of medical treatment for the sisters or to draw on funds designated for the religious. Workmen were encouraged to labor without payment or at reduced rates. We relied heavily on volunteers who worked long hours in our soup kitchens, shelters, and day camps.
"A hard-working farmer devoted many of his waking hours to collecting and delivering food for our soup kitchens and shelters. "If I didn't come, what would you eat?" he asked.
"Our Constitution forbade us to beg for more than we needed, but, when it came to begging, the millions of dollars accumulating in the bank were treated as if they did not exist.
"For years I had to write thousands of letters to donors, telling them that their entire gift would be used to bring God's loving compassion to the poorest of the poor. I was able to keep my complaining conscience in check because we had been taught that the Holy Spirit was guiding Mother. To doubt her was a sign that we were lacking in trust and, even worse, guilty of the sin of pride. I shelved my objections and hoped that one day I would understand why Mother wanted to gather so much money, when she herself had taught us that even storing tomato sauce showed lack of trust in Divine Providence."
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Was Mother Teresa Really
a Fraud?
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After reading the material provided by Wyjoz, we need to determine whether the detractors of Mother Teresa are correct in claiming that she was a fraud. In order to do that, to be fair, we need to gather all that have been written about this woman, both favorable and unfavorable. If Mother Teresa were not well known, I would include here material that portrays her in a favorable light. Since so much has been written about her, and since every individuals on planet earth has been exposed to this, I do not think that this is necessary. My question is: If we take everything that has been said about her, and compare the positive with the negative comments that have been made about her, how will she fare? Will she come out as a fraud? I do not think so.
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I wonder what motivation prompted those who criticized her work. Was it a desire to bring her reputation down to size? Was it inspired by a dislike of the Catholic institution? Was it to prop the authors own image at the expense of a well-known and highly respected individual? The reader must decide. Can anyone name any highly respected individual who has been free from human frailty. Will God judge Mother Teresa and conclude that she was a fraud?
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Would the thousands of children who benefited from her love and care have been better off had Mother Teresa never been born, or never bothered to do something on their behalf? Was all her work in vain? If the press did exagerate her accomplishments, is she to blame for this? Could it be that those who criticize her work are motivated by their liberal pro-abortion agenda. We all know that she was a defender of the unborn. Can we atribute her enemies attitude towards her to their desire to stain her character because she condemned without hesitation the genocide of the unborn?
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If I had the time to do some serious investigation, I would try to answer some of the questions I have raised here. Since this forum is simply my hobby, and since nobody is sponsoring this work of mine, and I have a family to support, then I have no choice but to leave such a project for somebody else interested in finding the truth. Jesus was the only perfect man that walked on earth; nevertheless, he was the most criticized man in human history. Even one of his own disciples questioned the wisdom of his Master in allowing a sinful woman lavishly pouring an extremely costly perfume on him. If Jesus was the target of the most unjust and cruel criticism, then what can we say of someone who was a mere human being, subject to all the prejudices common to human nature.
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This is my humble opinion!
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Nic
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Catholics And Abortion
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I received the following comments from Wyjoz dealing with Catholics and abortion. My reaction to these comments is listed below. Wyjoz is respondig to the quoted material appearing in smaller size print. I will post my follow-up comments in blue color.
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"I have a question for you: How does your argument that most abortions are performed by Catholics negate what I stated about Catholic hospitals refusing to perform abortions?"
DO YOU REMEMBER STORIES:::::: WHERE WOMEN AND CHILDREN WERE SLAUGHTERED WITHOUT MERCY by Rome IN ALL HISTORICAL WARS? IN HOUSES WHERE 'NUNS' LIVED AND THEIR HOUSES WERE DEMOLISHED BABIES REMAIN WERE FOUND -- THE NUNS DID BIRTH BABIES AND KILLED THEM AND BURRIED THEM IN THE CONVENTS!!! IT'S HISTORY !! WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT PRIESTS/CARDINALS/POPES HAVING HAD SEX WITH NUNS AND GETTING RID OF THE ''''BASTARDS''''' 'WE' TRYING TO BE 'NICE' ARE TRYING TO PORTRAY THAT NICENESS TO SITUATIONS THAT ARE NOT CLOSE TO BEING NICE!
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According to the Bible, children should not be condemned for the sins of their parents. I deduct from this that the present Catholic Church should not be condemned for the atrocities committed by the Popes, priests and prelates of the past. Each generation should be accountable for its own sins and shortcomings. My original comments dealt with the present, not the past. The character of people and institutions does evolve. The Adventists of today have values which in some instances are totally opposite to those espoused by the SDA pioneers. A case in point is our current altered attitude towards the killing of innocent children before birth.
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When Ellen White was alive, we were in agreement with the Catholic Church that abortion was a direct violation of Biblical principles. Rome still regards this to be true, while Adventists have officially sided with those who defend women's right to deprive their own unborn children of life. A couple of decades ago or so, George Vandeman wrote a book entiled: "What I like About." In it he dedicated each chapter to discussing what he liked about, Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc. Following this example set by this highly respected SDA leader, I decided to point out with my doctoral dissertation what I liked about the Catholic Church's respect for the life of the unborn.
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ONE MORE FACT: EVEN THOUGH ABORTION IS THE MOST HORRID OR ALL HORRIBLE ACTS ANYONE CAN DO TO A INNOCENT LIFE WHAT ABOUT '''KILLING'''' OF YOUNG GIRLS AND YOUNG BOYS BY SEX BY PRIESTS/CARDINALS ETC????
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Since you seem to be willing to expand our discussion to side issues, then let me ask you: Do you think that Adventists are innocent of such abominable behavior? I have lived over three quarters of a century and have seen quite a bit. Perhaps you haven't. I will cite only one example of things that have taken place among SDA's. This is taken from my doctoral dissertation. The person reporting this was one of the individuals selected by the General Conference to participate in the study that eventually led to the issuing of the SDA document known as the "Guidelines on Abortion." Here is what she cites, and she claims she is willing to testify in court about the veracity of what she describes:
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Why We Left: A Letter to Family and Others
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by Teresa and Arthur D. Beem
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"Later when I was president of Adventists for Life, I listened to Adventist girls tell horrific stories of how their pastors and teachers sneaked them out of school and took them to have abortions (several without their parents' consent or knowledge). In Loma Linda, a senior med student told me that one abortion clinic run by Dr. Edward Allred, [22] a former Adventist who graduated at La Sierra, ran free shuttles between his clinics and Adventist schools and gave Adventist students discount abortions." [http://sdaforum.com/page112.html]
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By the way, my investigation revealed that Dr. Allred is a graduate of Loma Linda University. His original desire was to become an Adventist minister, but he later on switched his choice to medicine. He currently owns over twenty abortion clinics in California. Of course, he is no longer a member of the SDA church. If he still were a member of our church, It would not surprise me a bit, since some years ago a survey was published in the "Ministry" magazine stating that five SDA owned hospitals were offering elective abortion services to their clients. Perhaps you should read the results of my doctoral dissertation. Here is the Internet link: http://www.sdaforum.com/page13.html. We need to be fair! If we criticize other religions, our own should not be exempted.
THAT IS WORSE !!! THE ABORTED BABY DID NOT SUFFER FOR LIFE! AS THIS FORM OF 'KILLING' GOES ON AND ON AND ON THROUGH THE PERSONS WHOLE LIFE !!!!
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I think that you need to ask any of those who have been the victims of abuse by Catholic and Adventists clergy whether they would prefer to have been deprived of life before birth. If you were to conduct a research about this, methinks that you would be surprised by the results!
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JUST BECAUSE 'NOW' CATHOLIC HOSPITALS DO NOT PERFORM ABORTIONS WELL HURRAY FOR THEM ! BUT CATHOLICS GET ABORTIONS IN ABORTION CLINICS ! ! ! IN OTHER HOSPITALS !
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Yes, some Catholic pregnant women secure abortion from SDA owned hospitals. The fact that many Catholic women are not living according to the teaching of the Catholic Church does not invalidate the fact that the Catholic hierarchy strongly condemns the killing of the unborn, while Adventists have opted to justify the genocide of the unborn under a long list of circumstances, including rape, incest, malfomation, when the pregnant female is a minor, and even when the pregnancy is affecting the mental health of the woman. My question to you: have you ever known of an unexpected pregancy failing to produce a state of temporary depression in a pregnant woman who is not ready to raise a child? This means that for Adventists adhering to the official "Guidelines on Abortion" , the killing of their unborn children is justified in almost every instance.
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"My argument was: Our church which claims to be the "Remnat of God" keeping "God's commandments", officially justifies the killing of the unborn, while the Catholic church, whom we labell as the "Beast of Revelation" condemns the genocide of the unborn in the stongest terms. Where did I go wrong?"
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DO SDA HOSPITALS PERFORM ABORTIONS ON DEMAND FOR BIRTH CONTROLL REASONS??? UPS I GOT PREGNANT AND NOW I GOT TO GET RID OF MY MISTAKE????
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As I stated above, a survey conducted some years ago, and reported in SDA periodicals, revealed that five of our own hospitals were offering elective abortion services to their clients!
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IF THEY DO ''''ANATHEMA'''' ON SDA HOSPITALS! PERHAPS THEY SHOULD CLOSE THEIR DOORS !!!! Joz
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Perhaps they should! I wish they would!
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How Does God Judge Individuals
& Institutions?
I received the following comment from Wyjoz via Email. My response appears below.
"nic::::: I was raised a 'catholic' my whole family is catholic; you being this 'nice' SDA can't get anything passed by me!
p.s. read the History of the Popes????"
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My Answer: Many years ago, when I was teaching at the "Colegio Adventista del Plata" [River Plate College, now Universidad Adventista del Plata], in Argentina, I was assigned to interpret for Elder Cleveland, from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. In my conversation with him, I asked him his opinion about John XXIII. I will never forget his answer: "I believe that he is a saint, and I expect to see him when we get to heaven." He was judging the man by his own actions instead of doing so on the basis of the actions of his predecessors. This is the way the Lord judges each one of us: on the basis of our own behavior, instead of the behavior of our ancestors.
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I will now use an example from the Bible. We have in the Old Testament a long line of kings starting with Saul, who did evil in the sight of the Lord. His successor, David, was judged by the Lord as a good king. Then many kings followed, and the sacred record labels each one on the basis of their own bahavior. Of King Hoshea it is recorded that he did "evil in the sight of the Lord," while regarding his son, Hezekiah, the Bible states that he "pleased the Lord." Then we have King Manasseh, who did "evil in the sight of the Lord," like his grandfather. If you keep reading, you discover that his grandson, King Josiah, "pleased the Lord."
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Do you see what I have been trying to tell you? Consequently, I conclude that if the God of heaven judges individuals and institutions on the basis of their own behavior, instead of the actions of those that preceded them, then it follows that we must do the same. You keep insisting that I read the history of the Popes. I keep replying that I must judge each Pope on the basis of his own behavior. Let the reader determine who is acting on the basis of biblical principles of justice.
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Likewise, I refuse to judge my own church on the basis of what Ellen White and the founders of this movement taught and did, but rather on the basis of the current teachings and actions of my church. I credit my church for a lot of good that is being done around the world, but I condemn the evil that it allows to exist in its midst. As a church we have championed our efforts to prolong the life of smokers by four or five years with our smoking cessation program. At the same time, we justify abortion which deprives human beings of their entire life. This doesn't make sense to me!
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Are Age & Wisdom Related?
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Do you think that Adventists are innocent of such abominable behavior? I have lived over three quarters of a century and have seen quite a bit. Perhaps you haven't.
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Dear Nic: I'm 60 y/o is this living long enough to know??? Joz
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My Response: Yes, but don't forget that, based on my age, I could be your dad! Age does not guarantee wisdom, but sometimes it represents an advantage. If you have any doubts, ask presidential candidate McCain. Do you remember what Ronal Reagan said to his younger opponent? "I will not hold against you your youth and inexperience!"
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Wyjoz Answer: MY DADDY DIED IN 88 SO CAN I CALL YOU DAD OR DADDY?
Age does not guarantee wisdom, TRUST ME I'M WISE ! I USED TO FIGHT AND CHALLANGE WITH KENT STATE PROFESSORS ! I AM 'WISE' for sure for sure ! Joz
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My Response: Sure! You can, provided you don't ask for a monthly allowance, and as long as you agree to be home not later than 11:00 PM. Age does not guarantee wisdom, but President Reagan believed it was an advantage over youth and inexperience!
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